Yes...another transport scheme!

Forgive me. When I was an infant I fell from my mommy’s lap and hit my head. As a result, in my seventh decade I now do silly things such as to continually try to think of some way to restore infantry transport function to the NAK servers. This is perhaps the most simple thing I’ve come up with yet, and besides, I must keep Vile from falling asleep at the switch.

I am advocating implementation a simple counter that limits the total number of HALO jumps available to each AO? Make that number say…35. It’s an ample, but not over-generous number that would, in most cases, leave the laggards behind, with the only option for getting into the action to then take a Heli ride. This might encourage players not to dally at the load-out crates, admiring themselves in different colored outfits, but to instead create saved, pre-configured load-outs to avoid missing the boat, as it were.

It would also create a greater fear of dying, as the penalty for becoming so would likely mean at least a five minute delay to get back into the business via a Heli lift. It would also give a sense of greater value to a HALO opportunity, as you would probably have only a single shot in each AO.

As the mission goes on, everyone would be reliant on transport of course. This now makes the transport role NECESSARY and not just optional. This also gives Heli pilots incentive to be well-trained and knowledgeable, as many players would begin to get picky about whom they would like to ride with. It may also revitalize the CAP role for jet jockies, as they would now be aware that transports would, more often than not, be carrying a considerable load of life.

I’m sure Vile has something in his kit bag that would deter such a brilliant scheme, but one can only try. Besides, I would think the programming requirements might be relatively easy to implement.

Normally I’m all for advocating change. However, this is something I’d like to avoid implementing. I hope that in my response below, I can cultivate a good decision.

Ultimately, players experimenting with ways to improve their equipment and overall game is the lifeblood of NAK and Arma 3. I’ve been the benefit of many patient folk while I try new things out. Arma 3, played repetitively doing the same thing, often lacks the appeal 3, 6, or 12 months down the line. I feel that this change would hurt retention.

Additionally, what about times with low server population? 6-7 infantry plus 1 pilot can not effectively clear an AO, and I’ve seen an AO stay around for 30-45 minutes before switching to a defend; yet will still burn through the HALO count. Does the 1 pilot have to drop what they’re doing and fly transport? How will they deal with enemy CAP?

Does a fear of dying seek to motivate players to take risk, such as going into fire to pick up fallen comrades? Do you think a fear of dying is ultimately a good and productive thing? I’d love to see what you say.

Ultimately, I’ve seen first hand (as I am sure you have) other pilots in NAK not caring about infantry deaths. To most, one dead infantrymen is one less person to take out hard targets and soft targets today, even if they are in the symbiotic relationship. Additionally, this system seems to tacitly encourage pilots to take CAS planes to destroy target rich AOs; unless you also plan to introduce a way to compel people to transport.

My un-informed opinion is that any transport scheme requires compelling people to transport troops. And while that is fun for some players, a strong majority of the server don’t see it that way.

Love to hear your thoughts to any of this.

Just posted about this in the “Halo jump/transport” thread. In summary, I think the answer to the problem is to use a carrot rather than a stick. Halos are sometimes necessary so you simply cant put any restriction/penalty on that. So surely the answer is to add a reward for using transport when it is available?

Looks Like Vile has responded via another post, but my response here…

I am not advocating elimination of HALO. I use it myself on the Tanoa and Malden servers, where lower player counts kind of make transport moot. I often Take side missions and even main AO’s by myself when there are few or no other players. Sometimes I just like the challenge. This would be impossible if not for HALO, as you will die MANY times in the lone wolf role before achieving victory when highly outnumbered, and when facing an enemy that will kill you instantly if you expose half your face at the edge of a boulder 800 meters away!

When talking of HALO mods I am always thinking about Altis. Low player counts would not make HALO unavailable with this idea, but eventually, with enough respawns, even a low player count might use up the remaining HALO jumps, making transport necessary. I had not considered a situation where players would use up all the HALOS, and if nobody was flying transport, they would be stuck. I had made the assumption that there would always be transport available - a gross error on my part. I don’t think a lot of players think, " I’ll log onto Altis today and cart a lot of players around the map in an unarmed Heli!" Most players are there to shoot at something. I am part of a VERY small minority who recognizes that there is a very well done embedded flight sim inside of ARMA, and as a real-world pilot, I find it enjoyable to fly in it. I could do that in the editor of course, but it’s nice to have a purpose.

In any case, Vile’s concurrent other post reveals what sounds like a very good plan, and I will be anxious to see how it works. I have kind of given up on transport flying lately - for lack of business! I am always a bit reluctant to come up with suggestions, because I know that even the most simple-sounding ideas must be translated into code. And though I can create a web site using HTML and CSS, I am a complete dunce when it comes to complex code and scripting. That’s why I am a regular NAK donor. I don’t think a lot of players realize this is a shared, pro-bono activity. Regulars should be ponying up to share the costs. Especially those of us who are not doing any of the work.

The current selling point of the I&A altis server is (IMHO) partially its arcady-feel, but it also leaves room for the more tactical squadplay. You can simply “plug and play”, grab a loadout and go fight, or if desired, team up, take your own verhicle and customized loadout and play it more tactically.

Reducing this mechanic to please pilots would be pleasing for those few who want to fly more, but would greatly harm the “I dont feel like sitting in a chopper at base for 5 minutes, another 10 on the ride to just get shot down by an enemy tigris”.

The transporting would cause frustrations that the current HALO system removes. That afk guy in the old LZ might get FF’d just to “get the transport going”. Transport taking off before you get in? shoot at its rotors so he has to land and repair.

Making halo’s number specific simply punishes all players for the mistakes of a few.

I would love to see something along the lines of this. Rewards for good transport pilots (an uber rating? :laughing: ), not too punishing for the other “commuters”, and especially reducing the transport time in general. The presence of verhicles (especially friendly tanks) is at this moment extremely noticeable, because getting them out there if the AO is further than 3 clicks out, is a nightmare. However, if there are friendly verhicles present, the AO is done way quicker (military hill or the one on hotel are really nice examples).

TL:DR dont punish HALO jumpers, but improve transport to prevent frustrations.

I will not be replying to the whole post as I partly support the presence of the HALO jump, but do believe that with it players stop caring about their lives and just jump randomly until it somehow magically works out.

When it comes to this, there’s a very big difference between the concept which wmetcalf means (Or at least, my understanding of it.)

As a usual pilot (Often running transport) I get to see a phenomenon which occurs very much every single day. A group of 3, 4, 5 people will just jump, instantly get killed, respawn, jump again, kill a single enemy and they just do that to the point where there’s no one left in the AO. I don’t think it’s the way that an arma game should be played, I do believe you should have to care about loosing your life, even though that as said:

I understand the arcade side of it, and can get the appeal in just being able to play carelessly, but I also believe that a more tactical and careful approach should be more rewarded and cheered then just constant stupid and easily avoidable deaths.

Swinging back to the topic mentioned by you:

I can assure you, none of those people who HALO back in will even attempt to save you, unless you literally call them out loud on side chat, and even then it might not work. So certainly “picking up fallen teammates” will not be affected, and might even get improved if the players focus more on being careful.

I do believe that maybe there could be a way to implement points for being “careful” similar to how in FPS games you get kill streaks where you will get more XP points for your 10th kill in a single life then your 20 kills with constant deaths in between.

Instead of restricting the “bad” stuff, encourage the good things. Maybe such an approach might help.

Don’t know if it would be hard to implement, but one of the most logical ways to reduce excessive HALOing and lack of concern for “dying” might be to count HALO jumps against the player’s server score. That of course relies upon having players who are concerned about their server score, and I rather doubt that the freewheeling Altis player base gives a hoot about that. As more of us discuss the transport role I have begun to recognize and accept the “loose” environment of the Altis server, and the reasons why it’s difficult to make major changes.

It is sad to accept that the main activity which brought me to my first MP experience - transport flying - Is pretty much pointless on this server. And because of low player counts, it’s really not very viable on the Malden and Tanoa servers (where I mostly play now) either. The thing you do get on these other servers is more challenging play, and the frequent opportunity to play as a squad, especially as you get to know the regular players. I don’t have a home environment that allows me to spend the large chunks of time necessary to participate in NAK TAK events, so the opportunity for squad play on these other two servers is a welcome opportunity. Still, I really miss the flying.

I don’t like dying and having to HALO in but with the amount of aggressive armor and aggressive infantry (good thing), sometimes you have to jump, take out armor first, die trying, and then respawn until all armor is down then on to infantry. Also, I don’t like trying to be a marksman while also carrying in a tube a HUGE backpack and 4 bottle rockets just to be a one man army and stay alive. I think in this case, leave HALO as is and this is my two cents. We can squad up as we feel comfortable with other players that seem to be like minded.

Well, when it comes to this situation the issue is quite straight forward… We have to remember that Alits, as Wave said:

I do believe that disabling the HALO feature wouldn’t be an optimal solution, and as stated earlier (By me):

I did come up in that same post with a “new” system that might be worth an attempt, similar to how FPSs (First Person Shooter) work with the kill streaks (2 kills in a row, 5, 10, 20 and so on).

Such a system in my opinion might motivate the players (Who care about their scoreboard) to focus on surviving. (I wouldn’t reset the stats when the player gets downed, only whenever he dies/respawns).

I’ll explain further, but I believe that most of the public here might be aware of the system that I’m talking about.

In most of the good shooters there’s a concept where you get rewarded extra points for “extra” tasks. KDR (Kill Death Rate) in those games is quite relevant and will be rewarding. (A player who killed 20 enemies, and didn’t die will get more points then a player that killed 50 enemies, and died 10 times).

According to Wave (I’ve had a small chat with him in TS) this should be possible to script properly, so, similarly to the usual games, implementing a similar system here. Every 5 kills within 1 life you’ll get extra points, those points should be higher with a higher amount of kills, f.e: 5 kills - 1 extra point, 10 kills - 2 extra points, and so on (That should be tweaked accordingly but I used these numbers just for clarity)

It would improve the transport (For experienced players at least) as they will be motivated enough to try and trust a pilot to RTB (Return To Base), or get him to the next AO (Area of Operation), potentially saving those kill streaks rather then re-spawning and losing all of the progress.

It would be similar to how pilots (currently) tend to be careful with their air-crafts as there’s a re-spawn timer on them, and instead of crashing whenever they get hit they try to do the best possible to save the aircraft and get it fixed up instead of bailing out instantly and letting the plane crash without any care at all.

I would love to see more feedback on this topic, and improvements to this idea.

i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.

Even though that in some way it is true, the suggestion to “fix” that issue stays the same.
If people want to stay alive they will call in Transport rather then suiciding, as stated earlier:

So I would like to hear out more feedback on the suggestion instead of the issue, as that potentially could be a way to “fix” or at least “reward” the players who actually care about their ingame lives.

i got to the conclusion that not the paradrop is the problem , the forced respawn after mission is over is the problem about transport.

If we did this, the players would just disconnect and reconnect. This is exactly what happened when we added the HALO timer. Because players do not want to wait, they disconnect from the server and reconnect, which in turn cuases additional network traffic, slowing down the server.

Humans will cheat. Especially when they don’t get penalized. As long as there is no consequence for “dying” there will no qualms about endlessly HALOing back in. I do it myself, most often when on Tanoa or Malden, when taking on an AO or side mission by myself. It would be impossible to remain alive against such overwhelming numbers, and ridiculously superior opponents. It’s a serious challenge to do this all alone. I don’t give much thought to how many times I come back in. It just becomes a tactical game of finding the most successful way to beat the AI - a form of play that is often used to extend game value in single player titles after one has completed all the “official” goals.

My attitude changes when playing, with, or alongside others. Out of respect for the other players’ attempts to keep things realistic, I take more time and care not to die, and make every possible attempt to revive comrades, often at my own expense - and I will usually only re-spawn if I am out of reasonable reach of other players for a revival in a reasonable amount of time. I believe this embodies what a good multiplayer environment should be. There is little realism if we are all playing to our own rules.

Some sort of enforced penalty for dying may change the attitude of some players, but it’s just as likely to tee off others. There is a core of regular NAK players who really don’t need the policing. We play together by choice, and seem to play by unspoken rules when playing with each other.

Obviously as I said earlier, once again:

Don’t punish, as Wave said even earlier:

I fully agree with this point of view and have been long enough (Obviously not as long as many of the users who are on here) to see that behaviour in players, so, that’s why I came up with what I came up on this topic.

Can’t agree more, if something isn’t restricted (But is incredibly overpowered) people will use it without any minor concern.

The idea that I’ve suggested earlier, with the points:

In my opinion that’s even better… Cooperating is always better then going solo. So I think it’ll even be a nice reward for people who play in a cooperative style (Similar - Maybe not as tryhard- as the Open Tactical Tuesdays) where people try to survive and apply realism to the AO.
Such an approach (Rewarding players for actually playing together with a system that doesn’t force you to it, but encorages is awesome)

The initial idea behind this suggestion was mainly focusing on the experienced and “old” or as you name them, “Core” nak players are already doing that, and deserve a reward for their effort and good work.

So I guess it’s a different approach, instead of restricting players, just give them points for good behaviour

As a gamer from the days when there were no PC’s, only dedicated gaming rigs like the Commodore 64 and Amiga, and having only played on multiplayer servers for perhaps a year, I probably have a different take than most. I value the democracy and open-ended possibilities the NAK servers provide. Thus I see myself playing in at least three different styles. When playing solo against an AO or side mission, I enjoy trying to find out how to tactically overcome the ridiculous imbalance of me against the AI. At other times I get hooked on trying to max out the score (I believe I have over 6000 pts. on at least one server). And when other players show up on the server I can put my head in a completely different place, and enjoy the satisfaction of squad play.

Recently I played on Altis, and while choosing my saved load-out character at the Arsenal I overheard a player asking how you got players to play together. I responded that there were no rules or established procedures. You just try to get other players around you to agree to play together. I then got the interest of about a dozen other players standing there and said, “Lets all spawn together as a squad and play together.” I took the lead and designated a spawn location atop a large hill in the new defend mode of the current AO, and we all HALO’d there. We ended up playing as a large squad, defending that hill against the AI, which made continuous (and really challenging) efforts to try and take us out and take that hill. You could see that players were into the camaraderie and mutual support aspect of the whole scenario, keeping the group advised of enemy movements, and adjusting positions to boost weak spots in the defense. It kind of felt like we were all in a war movie. It was actually quite a memorable experience, and demonstrated that it was player attitudes, and not a set of rules that mattered.

I think there is a fine (and perhaps unnecessary) line between regulation and freedom, and my above experience showed that, if players were given a chance, and showed how, they do really get into squad-type play. RE. Altis - I would personally like to see changes that didn’t necessarily regulate, but would provide mechanisms which threw players together in such a way as to encourage them to work together - even if that was not their intention going in. Here’s a suggestion along those lines: How about a simple designated area (special billboard, etc.) at formation locales where players who wanted to play squad-style could gather? They would self-determine how and where they would go in through mutual agreement. Perhaps the billboard would elaborate on how to communicate while playing.

I have to admit that all of my gaming experience began on single player games. The first ever game that I can recall playing was one of the COD’s, Call Of Duty 2. That game obviously had a very different approach, where you were the one leading, and the rest were simply following you. If you didn’t advance to your checkpoint, no one would and so on.

About the multiplayer gaming I also have to admit that unlike you, I do have vast experience on multiplayer games, as my first multiplayer experience was on GTA:SA (Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas), on a multiplayer mod known as MTA:SA (Multi Theft Auto: San Andreas) which introduced me quite well onto different playstyles online and so on.

About the playstyles, I am personally used onto a more cooperative approach (Most of my multiplayer experience tends to be cooperative - Roleplay servers, Coop games, etc.) So I usually tend to try and be as cooperative as I can at all times, and it’s just my personal preference.

On this regard… It’s pretty much all that I’ve been trying to say all along, I do also believe that after some discussion and debating encoraging players with rewards will be much more effective then forcing rules over them.

I don’t know about a Billboard, but I do think that it could potentially be interesting to advertise more of the Bandit’s Tactical Tuesdays as they give a great opportunity for players to actually see some nice cooperation between many players, it would also give them a hint on how to proceed with communication and even teach them some strategies.

About the initial issue, I still can’t stop myself from pushing the idea that I’ve had even further, as with each post that gets added, and with additional opinions my suggestion makes more and more sense. It’s not a stick to beat people with, but rather a treat to give to the good players.

Hello all,

Just a side note before I give my two cents I’m at work so this message will be short, but I do plan on making a an in depth post because many issues that are being discussed I have first hand knowledge of issues and frustrations as my main style of play is Recon/JTAC/Sniper and being a heli pilot.

For the most part I definitely agree with WilliamTesla, I think the focus should be more trying to implement more or better rewards for coop and unit cohesive play, rather than restricting or punishing. Especially liking the idea of bonuses or exponential exp for streaks etc.

The biggest issue i see is that things cant be all adapted due to the changing nature of the server, what i mean by this is that style of play changes pending number of people playing at that time. 15-20 people it HAS to change. You can forget about being a heli pilot or transport, unfortunately, due to the crazy amount of enemy CAP recently. Without a dedicated CAP team its impossible to do flight operations. HALO jumps become imperative to even play.

That being said, I was talking to William yesterday and came up with something I think everyone could agree with and probably might be the simplest and effective means for the issue… Just like the NAK rules and the messages in global chat, perhaps simply input some message of this exact issue… something simple like “please be advised that transport helicopters are available, please check the map for inbound pilots or request pickups via side channel, they are there for you, please utilize them”

This I think might be the best and easy option to implement as it’s simple to add and doesnt change any system… it just simply raises awareness

I also realize I said I would keep it short but whoops :smiley:

Hi there! Welcome to the forums!

90% Of my posts are done from my office as I very often don’t have anything to do (I work as an IT maintenance tech) so unless something is broken I’m just sitting there and waiting.
I do very often see you as support roles, and that very much reminds me of my own preference. Usually I am at all times trying to help out, and that means that even though I enjoy transport roles, I very often have to be dedicated CAP.

No matter how much I’d like to say it’s not true, and you can still be a transport pilot whenever you want… This is a very true statement, and even when the server has some CAP/CAS you’ll still get taken down quite often if your CAP is not paying any attention and has one GBU/KAB or any other bomb to waste before coming back to his CAP tasks. As a transport pilot you totally depend on your CAP, and even on your CAS as with the AA batteries that spawn all across the map, unless those are disabled you can forget about getting people close to the AO’s. Usually they understand it, and don’t mind having to run a few clicks to get to the AO, which is a good thing at least.

I did like the idea, but also think that this message alone won’t change much. I believe that for example, if the killstreak system that I suggested earlier this could be added as an informative message at least for some time, to explain the benefits of staying alive. Also the Bot that usually spams with Nak Elite and all of those messages could get another one added, with something along the lines of “Hey, we got a new system in place, check it out!”.

On the other side, I do agree that it would be a relativelly easy thing to implement, and would give a hint to some of the players to how it should be done, without forcing them, but rather just guiding them into a more tactical and careful gameplay.

@BlueFalcnActual really appreciate the effort you went through in suggesting this, and I really hope that you stay around the forums!

Ooo another idea, kinda what I saw before or hinted but not sure if it was this specifically, but goes along with the rewards system…

Not sure who writes the mods n scripts for the server but would it be possible to reward exp for time in helicopter for infantry? Like say 1xp a minute or something

That way it encourages use, rewards person, and say if u did get shot down last minute or due to some crazy situation like AA spawning underneath you which does happen lol, you still get something out of it

And also possibly for anyone in helicopters including the pilot, because unfortunately in that transport role u dont really get much because of not getting kills or being near completed objectives most times